Technology Similes to Better Understand Life

The last few decades of technological achievements have provided numerous chipforbrainblue77.jpginnovations to ponder.  New information and new ways of living our lives are now aspects of current cultural and social advancements that previously were only considered as the subject matter of science fiction novels.

And likewise, we have new ways of ‘understanding something completely new’ by comparing it to something vaguely familiar—something already existing.  In writing that ‘understanding a subject better by comparing the unfamiliar to that which is familiar’ using the words “as” or “like,” is called using a “simile.”

This matters WHY?

Well I’ve been reading Paul Selig’s trilogy Book of Mastery (Book I), Book of Truth (Book II), Book of Freedom (Book III); and I find that the subject matter described within is seligbooksandvibrationtextmore easily comprehended because of my existing beliefs in multi-dimensions, multiple-lives, energy work, etc, along with my minuscule knowledge of computer-related technology.  It is the last consideration that I’m using for this ‘simile material.’

Prior to perhaps three decades ago when average households began their meteoric acquisitions of personal computers, most of us had no concept of such things as virtual realities or databases, and especially no comprehension of electronic communications systems.  (Hard to imagine, I know.)

But way back then, multi-function calculators were considered “high-tech” devices, and everyone owned a land-line or had to use a public phone booth to call anywhere.  How many of those are still around?

So now that these relatively NEWER electronic marvels are considered common fare and the latest and greatest innovations are often conversation fodder in daily office banter, our personal understanding of “all things possible” has risen sharply over the last three decades primarily because of how fast our electronic technology is advancing, and with that advancement our understanding what was once incomprehensible, becomes blasé faire.   bookofmasteryselig5.jpg

However, back to Selig’s book series and how this all relates.

The subject matter described in Selig’s trilogy is actually what I have been blogging about for the last few years: The ability to shift our frequencies higher to tune into a higher reality—a higher consciousness, and live a more loving and compassionate life in the process.

With the rise of Virtual Reality games and movies, that mind-stretching has allowed most of us a glimpse into considering the possibility that the life we are presently living is as illusionary as the VR game that we are playing with our electronic devices.

And with this consideration in mind, that also means that this life we actually do live is changeable in a positive way if the “collective consciousness” of our time can shift all our attention out of the ‘fear and hatred frequencies’ and into the higher frequencies of lovingness often called Christ Consciousness or Buddha Consciousness, or even simply called enlightenment.

We use those well known and well documented human comparisons of Christ- and Buddha-behavior to help the masses comprehend that softer/gentler attitude and mode of behavior necessary to achieve a higher frequency collective shift.  We refer to those known masters who highercomnsciousnessblue55best demonstrated what that loving kindness attitude and behavior is, was, or could be. We use them as examples—similes for depicting the highest standards of loving kindness because it’s pretty hard to relate to a non-descript ‘something’ called a “frequency.”

The importance to consider here is far less about the personage—the myth—the story of the teacher or human model (like Jesus or Buddha), and more about the higher FREQUENCY of consciousness that those models attained and adopted to reach that level of loving kindness for everyone and everything.  Once those consciousness masters successfully shifted their own personal awareness, they shifted everyone and everything around them as well by simply holding that higher frequency within themselves, because when your direct connection to SOURCE is that strong, you simply radiate that higher frequency to all around you.

And when the frequency that we personally hold rises to that higher level of lovingnesss then the world around us begins to shift higher because it has to match the frequency that we collectively hold.  I think the point of the Selig series is in learning how to shift your own thinking and behavior into that higher frequency Christ-/Buddha-consciousness range.

(For more on the frequency levels of consciousness subject, eyeoftheeyehawkinsyou might want to read Dr. David R. Hawkins’ The EYE of the I, from Which Nothing Is Hidden. Hawkins focuses on tying all awareness into light frequencies and calibrating the consciousness levels between the general masses and the great avatars/teachers who reached that state of extreme expanded awareness. I’m not certain I agree with everything he says, but he gives a thorough explanation of the multiple levels of light frequency consciousness per his theory.)

Anyway, the Selig books may be of interest to some so I’m mentioning them, and I do think I’ve noticed a shift upward in my own thinking since I began reading them—not so much that this subject matter is new territory for me to consider, but that holding that consideration so strongly for longer periods of time, is helping me to stabilize the concepts in my mind and to “think” from those view points and SEE life in a more clear, unbiased manner because of them.  Or that’s just my opinion and/or delusion.

The main simile of importance here is the one on comparing this life to a Virtual Reality game where you choose your scenario and your actions during the game. If you stay in the ‘fighting and killing games,’ it’s pretty hard to raise your frequency into loving kindness.lifeasvrgame58.jpg

 

So maybe it’s time to choose a new Virtual Reality scenario for all of us to explore.  This ‘fighting and killing thing’ is going nowhere good for anyone.

 

 

 

Dreaming with Our Eyes Wide Open

I’ve mentioned previously that I am a fan of Alberto Villoldo, and over the years I’ve alberto987.jpgappreciated his psychological insights into human nature and his identifying the archetypal patterns we follow in the natural world around us. I also receive his weekly newsletter from The Four Winds Society that he founded (https://thefourwinds.com); and while this partial quote was from a July 2018 email, I kept it because there was importance in properly assessing those three common personal delusions afflicting nearly all of us.

heartshamanbookalberto87.jpg“Releasing in a few short days is my newest book,  The Heart of the Shaman: Stories and Practices of the Luminous Warrior, where I discuss the three common dreams we turn into nightmares.

I share these with you because transforming them is foundational to finding your sacred dream. They are the daydreams we are so convinced are true and cannot seem to wake up from.

Yet, to dream with your eyes open, you must enact your courage to face each of these head on:

  • The dream of security
  • The dream of permanence
  • The dream of love that is unconditional

When you transform these dreams─when you accept that life is ever changing, that your mortality is a given, and that no one can liberate you from a life of fear and insecurity except yourself─the chaos in your life turns to order and beauty prevails.

When you find your sacred dream, the creative power of the universe (known by the shamans as the Primordial Light) becomes available to you to create beauty in the world, and to heal yourself and others.”   —Alberto Villoldo, Ph.D.

***

How many of us once believed in those concepts of security, permanence, and relationship love that is unconditional?

As Alberto states above, “They are the daydreams we are so convinced are true and cannot seem to wake up from.”

I think time and age bursts many delusional bubbles, but the daydreamer673trick is to allow our senses to effectively clear without depressing our life spirit, which means we must learn to view life in general less romantically and more realistically.

Ideal states are those levels of human attainment that we may indeed strive toward, but facing the reason for WHY we feel the need to bolster our delusions of an idyllic existence against what actually transpires in our lives, is to confront our deepest fears head on.

When you transform these dreams (of security, permanence, and relationship love that is unconditional)─when you accept that life is ever changing, that your mortality is a given, and that no one can liberate you from a life of fear and insecurity except yourself─the chaos in your life turns to order and beauty prevails.”

I mean, who doesn’t want to feel safe? After all these natural and man-made disasters around the globe, there are so many people in the world right now that would wish for this day-dream of security above all the others.

Who doesn’t want to feel a sense of permanence in their lives—for themselves and for the people they love the most?  It is a truth we can’t deny: people we love do die. We ourselves often face life-threatening illnesses and injuries that can lead to our personal demise. With one natural disaster, life can chew us up and spit us out seemingly at whim because we are mortal beings with limited shelf-life and we don’t last forever in physical form.

Who doesn’t want to personally know and feel unconditional love in their life? Who unconditionallove623doesn’t want to be accepted and appreciated for simply being ourselves, even with all our flaws and warts?  How many relationships are built on this brand of unconditional love? I’m guessing not many because it is hard to give unconditional love to others, let alone expect to receive it from them as well.

Life is hard. Love is hard. Experientially we learn so much by living in a chaotic world, but those lessons are based on successfully surviving with our sanity and our person in tack. That means we need to be well equipped to handle the world we actually must live in rather than the ideal world we once imagined to exist around us.

That also means we must face each day with courage and determination to make it the best possible day for ourselves and for those we love because there are no assurances that it will be as such.

Yes, we can still day-dream for a better existence and actually work toward that life for ourselves and for others around us, but first we must accept the situation realistically for exactly what it presently is THEN make the decision to do our best despite the adversity that we may face in the process.

“When you transform these dreams─when you accept that life is ever changing, that your mortality is a given, and that no one can liberate you from a life of fear and lifefearend34.jpginsecurity except yourself─the chaos in your life turns to order and beauty prevails.”

Yes, it is possible to create the life you desire. Yes, it is possible to surround yourself with loving companions. But we need to do so intentionally and with directed effort to create a better world for ourselves and for each other.

We must live with courage. Live with compassion. Live with eyes wide-open to all the chaos around you, and instead choose your path forward with grace and determination to make it a better place for yourself and for all of us. That is how you “create beauty in the world and to heal yourself and others.”

Live intentionally and in full awareness of your responsibility to bettering life itself. Don’t just expect it to happen.

You have to MAKE IT HAPPEN!

Then you don’t just survive your life’s ordeals—you learn how to thrive in spite of them. That’s when “the chaos in your life turns to order and beauty prevails.”

Living fearlessly in the face of adversity, is when you really learn to live.

fearlessliving 45

The Pretender

Sure, I could SO go there!

The obvious reference to this title would be the brooding hulk occupying the oval-office desk chair; when he’s not on the golf course, that is.anatomymiraclebookcov.jpg

But I was actually referring to a Jonathan Miles book I had just completed called Anatomy of a Miracle: A Novel*—The True* Story of a Paralyzed Veteran, a Mississippi Convenience Store, a Vatican Investigation, and the Spectacular Perils of Grace (with TRUE being the questionable descriptor in this story because it is, after all, a novel—meaning a work of fiction).

So my biggest question at the end of the story was is the book actually based on verified facts or is it simply fabrication pretending to be based on actual accounts?  I still can’t determine that, but I’m guessing it is fiction that reads like fact because we want it to do so.

jonmilesauthor.jpgAs the NY Times review suggested:  “…the genre that Miles is aping applies fiction’s methods to real-life stories, “Anatomy of a Miracle” offers the Victor-Victoria frisson of watching a novel impersonate a work of journalism impersonating a novel. It’s a difficult balancing act that Miles for the most part pulls off, and his book is best appreciated as a highly entertaining literary performance.”

Personally, I thought it was an astounding character study exploring the ulterior motives of everyone involved in the telling of a paralyzed vet’s miracle of suddenly rising from parkinglotstorefronthis wheelchair after four years of confinement to it–and doing so in the parking lot of the Biz-E-Bee convenience store in Biloxi, Mississippi while he waited for his helicoptering sister, Tanya, to purchase their daily smokes, beer, and Cap’n Crunch.

I’m always in awe of a skilled writer, and Miles is so gifted: intellectually, philosophically, and linguistically. He makes me want to study his techniques for topic exposition and subject exploration—how he carefully weaves the plotline into the unraveling research directions of the phenomenon; not to mention what an amazing perceiver/recorder of human nature that he is.

Then I went to the Amazon reviews of his book and was astounded by the depth or more appropriately, lack thereof, in the reviewer’s comments on it, and thought can people really be that shallow that they missed the point entirely?

biloximisscar.jpgA novel is far more than plotline. This was social comment all the way. Anatomy of a Miracle was an astute observation on what makes an unexplainable, sudden change in the human condition considered a miracle—with the word “miracle” implying an intervention by a force greater than ourselves.  Even the Vatican gets involved in considering the incident as such primarily because of reasons far too shadow-dependent to call it a holy vindication of God’s possible hand in the healing process.

But what does this sudden life change mean to the protagonist who has supposedly received this amazing proof of God’s Divine grace now bestowed upon him? And how vetchairflag.jpgdoes it likewise affect all those closest to him? As the camera pans out from the now-standing vet with the twitching legs, to how everyone around him interprets what has happened to him, and most importantly—how each proximal character determines in their own way what this supposed miracle means to each of them—how others try to use this strange phenomenon for their own personal motives—use it as their own vehicles to a personal lifestyle change for themselves also—use it to substantiate their own faith or belief in the possibility of miracles existing; and how this phenomenal  situation benefits/affects individuals, institutions, and cultural trends in general as it becomes simply the commercializing of miraculousness.

money god miracles.jpgOne of those key questions seems to be:  “What’s the quantity of dollars you can make from a miracle, directly or peripherally?

The other key question seems to be “How can I personally cash in on that guy’s ‘miracle’?”

I called this post “The Pretender” not because the protagonist faked the miraculous regrowth of his spinal cord that allowed him to stand up out of that wheelchair in the Biz-E-Bee parking lot, but because during the process of all those people so closely scrutinizing his life, he finally stood up for the person that he was pretending NOT to be all those years prior.

He simply stopped pretending to be something other than who and what he was. That was a miracle in itself.

 

The Purpose of the Universe

I did remember there was one quote in Chopra’s book that I wanted to salvage before shoving it onto the “oblivion shelf”:

“We participate in the universe by finding order and figuring out where the patterns come from. Einstein hit upon a deep truth when he said,I want to know the mind of God; everything else is just details.’  Substitute ‘the purpose of the universe’ for tolledivinepurposeof universe‘the mind of God’ and you have a goal worth pursuing for a lifetime.” (p73, You Are the Universe, etc.)

I’m pretty sure that is the very thing I said not long ago that I am pursuing in this blog: I want to know the purpose of the universe. I want to know the why’s, and how’s and where’s, and when’s of it all. So if I ever had a doubt that this is the right path for me to follow, I guess Deepak just confirmed for me that it is.

Thank you, Deepak!  Maybe that quote alone will move you from the “oblivion shelf” to the “think-about-it shelf” .

He also further described the ‘all choice possibilities’ being explored in M-theory and multiverses, which were favorite subjects of Stephen Hawking and Max multidefinition4.jpgTegmark, besides being one of my favorite subjects in this blog.

But rather than seriously considering the “multiverse” concept, Chopra/Kafatos said they prefer the concept that “the universe is self-organizing, driven by its own working processes. In a self-organizing system, each new layer of creation must regulate the prior layer. So the generation of every new layer in the universe, from particle to star to galaxy to black hole, cannot be considered random, given that it was created from a pre-existing layer that in turn was regulating the layer that produced it.” (p 71)

Hmmm.  Who said the multiverse was random, Deepak?  wattsquote76

I consider the multiverse intentional and more self-educating by whatever choice is made.  Isn’t “self-educating” how they train AI (artificial intelligence) systems? They learn from their previous choices and the results obtained from them, as to how successful those choices were to achieving their end goal?  And doesn’t that parallel how humans learn through our species-inherited rewards/punishment behavior motivators—just exponentially faster?

Anyway, those were a few quotes I did mark for further consideration from the You Are the Universe book.

True, one can find substantiating evidence no matter where one looks for any personally-held theory, but that also is a contributing aspect of the expanding human universe we daily live through our own unique perspectives and interpretations.

“It isn’t what we look at that is important, but what we see that makes it so.”

whatyouseethoreauquote6.jpg

“YOU Are the YOU-niverse”

With all the weekend precipitation received here I wish that I could say I had at least enjoyed the intense reading that this “quality inside time” allowed me.

diamondimage6.jpgInstead I can say I waded through two books that have long been sitting by my recliner. And the best thing I can say about both of them is that they can now be shelved away in my reference bookcase for future culling to Goodwill.

I love books, and I usually love good psychology/spirituality writers;  AND… I don’t like giving out bad reviews because any book critique is subjective and personally biased, BUT……..I think I want my money back from these two.

The first was A.H. Almaas book about the ‘Diamond Approach’ that he championed in psychology circles a few decades ago.

His book is called ESSENCE WITH THE ELIXIR OF ENLIGHTENMENT: The Diamond Approach to Inner Realization, …which sounded like something almaasbookessenceI’d love to read doesn’t it?  Yeah, that’s what I thought when I bought it.  Here we are defining reality and the unpinnings of the human experience: What is reality? What is spirituality? How does a human actually experience both?  What does it MEAN to do so?

Well maybe the copyright date of 1986 had more to do with this book’s pioneering appeal to introducing spirituality into psychology’s mental health approach in the early 1990’s than what it meant to me in the now, but I had to speed-read through it forcing myself to complete it.  Perhaps long ago in the newly-birthed spiritual movement in clinical psychology this book was considered influential and enlightening, but it did little for me in 2018, and THAT is what my review of it means for the present.

The other book I read was by one of the better-known spirituality writers of the last century: Deepak Chopra.  I can honestly say that I’ve read most books by Deepak, with chopragreenback.jpegsome books being better than others.  I still follow him on Facebook to hear his latest thoughts on our present-day situations.  I even commented on one of his articles awhile back (Nov. 22, 2017 – “How to Reset the Mind”) where he titled his article “Does the Human Mind Need a Fresh Start?”  I stated then that I thought his article was lengthy and involved, and sounded a bit “Buckminster Fullerish” where he tried to be so all inclusive and over-encompassing that it lacked focus and clarity.

Well, imagine him writing an entire 263-page book that same way explaining modern psychics and the latest Grand Unified Theory of Everything—the QUANTUM of life-as-we-know -it experience from his learned medical/spiritual perspective along with an astrophysicist, Dr. Menas Kafatos.  They call their new theory the “Qualia” Paradigm. It basically explains that the universe that we perceive is purely subjective and dependent on human perception to exist. Ok. We create our own reality—I do buy that part.

However in this book, it is goodbye string theory, adios to the Planck’s Quantum theory era with your waves and particles.

Here is all you ever thought you might want to know about the developmental history and modern theories of the Science of Physics and how to view/understand the world around us. Wow! What an undertaking, you might think. And it read just like that: What an undertaking to read this book.

The book is called: YOU ARE THE UNIVERSE: DISCOVERING YOUR COSMIC SELF AND youareuniversebook.jpgWHY IT MATTERS, by Deepak Chopra, M.D., and Menas Kafatos, Ph.D.   The best I can say about it is that at least I actually have a few penciled underlines in this one, whereas the Almaas book is crystal clear.

And I hate to fault Deepak for simply being Deepak. He tries so hard to explain spirituality against the more difficult aspects of modern physics and how to relate the spiritual experience into all of that equation-/math-dependent, empirical research environment that we define as the “scientific approach.”

He really tries to explain the nearly unexplainable about our present world; and I’m sure that I’ve gained a greater understanding about historical attitudes and approaches to the “What is life?” question that the scientific community has considered for centuries, ever since the overpowering Church institution relinquished its death-grip on “enlightened secular thinking.”

kafatosshoprapic.jpgBut Deepak being Deepak, gets wordy and lengthy and anecdotal and then one simile follows another simile, followed by analogies, followed by more similes and analogies because this stuff is hard to fathom any other way for those of us who are NOT into “physics” explanations and equations.

I’m glad he tried to dumb-it-down for those of us who might never have comprehended the basics of the physics theories any other way, but…. he doesn’t really convince this reader on his somewhat extrapolated theories other than I already believe what he’s trying to write. He doesn’t have to convince me.

And I don’t think his qualia principles and accompanying explanations are quitetimespacematterchopra.jpg the end-product of his own subjective, deductive logic.  But, again, good try Deepak.

On to the dusty bookshelf they both go.

The Beautiful Mystery

This title could be referring to LIFE itself, but here it refers to a book I just finished by Louise Penny called The Beautiful Mystery: A Chief Inspector Gamache Novel.beautiful mystery.jpg

Why I mention it is because it describes a fictional, secluded Canadian monastery of Saint-Gilbert-Entre-les-Loups (Saint Gilbert Among the Wolves) where an ancient order of Gilbertine monks reside and produce the most transcendent Gregorian chants imaginable in the modern world.

The book was okay—no literary masterpiece, but it did inspire me to look for my old CD of Gregorian Chants just to recall hearing the actual sounds of harmonious devotion sung in lower keys.

No luck.  Not even in Billy Joel’s hidden location. So I went online to Amazon to hear a few samples just to remember the vibrational feel of the monk’s chanting. Back when I first purchased my set of Gregorian Chants, I remembered them as interesting, but not awe-inspiring or ephemerally transcendent—or trance inducing as the book had claimed. I’m sure if they had been, I’d still be listening to them.

But I was at least inspired to keep playing Amazon samples of various Gregorian chants and other choral music until I heard some that did feel more ascendant and heavenly. ericwhitacher gold.jpgHowever, they weren’t Gregorian. They were in Eric Whitacher’s hauntingly-beautiful choral album called Light and Gold.

Check that out on Amazon if you get a chance. The very first song sample sold me. It was called “Lux Aurumque” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7o7BrlbaDs) .  This Virtual Choir has to be the most amazing thing in the world. The sound on the album Light and Gold is beyond ethereal, but the YouTube version is pretty close to it as well.

Just wanted to share that little discovery I made today with anyone if interested.

This time of year with our political situation in the states, we need all the ethereal assistance we can muster to shift our energies higher and beyond the level of these far lesser beings controlling our world.

Second Part on Pat Ogden, PhD from the S & P Summit

I wanted to complete this Pat Ogden review before more “info” comes through that I feel compelled to share. As mentioned in my earlier review of the summit itself, one of the patogden 5.jpgthings I liked most about some of these spiritual psychotherapy approaches was the more collaborative methods of therapy between client and therapist.  Pat Ogden was a main example of that.

Her stated belief was that you must trust your client’s inner wisdom (which the client may not be overtly aware of) to desire to heal non-harmonious aspects of themselves, so there is no need to push or force change with the client. You simply allow what needs to change to unveil itself as you work together. But you need to create a safe-haven (a safe and comfortable environment) for the work to unfold.

She believed in the principles of mindfulness and presence, meaning that mindfulness is an actual state of consciousness—where the observer and the observed are united within that state of mind; while presence is a state of beingness.

Being mindful is the ability to focus awareness within and outside the person all at same time, which is desirable at times, but it actually prevents you from being fully present in the body.  Mindfulness may be more the out-of-body experience while being present, is being well-grounded and right here, right now.

traumainterventions.jpgOgden’s work is a unity-focused therapy of client and therapist working together for better client outcomes.  She uses language reflective of the intention of unity— lak’ech-“I am another you.”   It’s a collaborative language of “we”ness in the client’s discovery process where you give the client an option, a say in what they will do together to help the client.  Frame it for them in ways that are easy to understand, and then give them the chance to say yes or no, let’s pursue that suggested exploration or let’s wait a week or so before we do.

Her focus is on holism. Her Sensorimotor Psychotherapy goal is to harness the wisdom of the body to liberate human potential, and the body holds tremendous potential for sensoimotor psy.jpgwisdom. She simply says to honor the intelligence of the body. Watch how a client is presenting herself.  What is the body language stating that the spoken words are not? Hunched shoulders means she is holding fear….so ask about that body message you are seeing.  “Why are you sitting so scrunched together? Are you hiding within yourself or unconsciously defending yourself from something you perceive around you?…Is there something you are afraid of—something you fear about this situation or about exploring those memories? Let’s get it out and look at it. Let’s see if it truly is threatening or just seemed that way for awhile.” (paraphrased)

She says one of the greatest gifts you can ever give is helping the client discover important things about themselves—what is meaningful to them.  Her goal is to help reveal the client to themselves—it’s all about self-discovery.

Ogden avoids diagnosis of a client and especially labeling them with a disorder because they too readily identify with the diagnosis and then become it.  Her stated example was Dissociative Identity Disorder…. It may not be a good thing to call someone this. It limits them—limits how they perceive themselves.

She believes in non-violent approaches. Don’t try to force a client toward an outcome. They resist and it may not be the right outcome anyway. Try another way if possible—make it more exploratory.  A lot of this involves more “undoing” bodypatternsthan doing—unlearning old ways of thinking and being, to allow new ones to emerge.

In her practice mindfulness is a critical skill that supports our way of being, and supports the importance of presence.  When we are focused on our bodies by using our minds to assess what we are feeling in the moment, and when we examine how we are executing the actions that we take in our lives, it establishes the principle of self-engagement. These are all building blocks of the “being present” experience.

Teaching clients how to pay attention to their own bodies and to learn to recognize their own body cues is important for recognizing what the body is telling them it actually needs for optimum mental and physical health. The client might misinterpret a current situation as to whether or not it is threatening, so you look for the natural body cues as to what their body, not their mind, is saying about it?bodyleadsushome.jpg

Helping clients look for their own body-reactions in situations helps them learn what is really happening to them as opposed to what is simply being triggered by a childhood memory, etc.   How we organize our experience—those earliest patterns of inner organization—are often how we first see a situation; and it starts with how we felt about a similar situation in our childhood—like whether or not we felt helplessness or fearfulness in that similar situation.

She believes that if we go in deeply enough to the inner depths of the client, the client’s natural higher consciousness will spontaneously reorganize them toward health.  Uncovering what is emotionally hiding within the client and preventing them from realizing their wholeness allows them to self-reveal and then to self-heal.

She simply becomes a container for love for the client—holding them in acceptance and process until their health is revealed.po7.jpg

Interesting lady, Pat Ogden. Good interview.

Thanks Sounds True for this psychotherapy/spirituality summit.